Time to buy low on Lohse
In ambition, expectations, and comfort with high-stakes risk, the distinctions between the Phillies and the Mets were never as much on display as last week, when the Phils signed Pedro Feliz on Monday, and the Mets traded for Johan Santana the day after.
For $8.5 million over two years, the Phils are making a modest bet that Feliz's strengths--defense and mistake-hitter power--will outweigh his broad-based offensive futility. For about twenty times as much money over seven years, the Mets are pushing a huge stack of chips to the middle of the table that Santana will add another Cy Young or two to his mantle and pitch them back into the NL East pole position, and well beyond to championship glory.
As we discussed then, the move vaults New York into the favorite slot in the battle for divisional supremacy. But not only does Santana give the Mets an ace whom you'd take over Cole Hamels in a head-to-head (if just for Santana's clean bill of health and more extensive big-game experience, for those into that sort of thing), he greatly reduces the risk factor throughout their rotation. Aging and injury-prone vets Pedro Martinez and Orlando Hernandez are now #2 and #3--though expecting them to effectively combine as a #2 is probably more realistic. Highly skilled but inconsistent younger starters John Maine and Oliver Perez, both 15-game winners in 2007, are now #4 and #5; for much of last season, they were #1 and #2. Talented young underachiever Mike Pelfrey is the first replacement, and the Mets might not be done yet--but more of that in a bit.
Now consider the Phillies. Hamels is a bona fide ace whose health is the only concern. Brett Myers, the once-and-again #2, is probably solid but did miss significant time last season. And then it gets scary.
For the moment, the Phillies' #3 starter is 45 year-old slop-baller Jamie Moyer. That description isn't an insult; when he's locating, Moyer is an absolute delight to watch, and not just because you read the speed gun and think "I could almost do that!" Particularly against young, aggressive hitters, it's a thrill to watch how he wins battles with sequencing and psychology. But he's 45, the ERA nosed over 5 last season, and even the young guys in the Braves, Marlins and Nationals lineups have seen him a time or three now. In every sense, time isn't on Moyer's side, and his projected results under various systems show as much: most have him around a 5 ERA in about 180 innings pitched.
The #4 is Kyle Kendrick, who's half Moyer's age but was as or more important in the Phils' unlikely run to the division flag last year. If you're a regular reader of this blog, or any other site coverage of the team aside from Phillies Pravda or whatever bobblehead the Daily News has on the beat these days, you probably understand why Kendrick can't really be counted on either: the low strikeout rate (3.64/9 IP), the flukishly great numbers with RISP last season (.207/.271/.310 allowed), the near-total lack of prospect pedigree before injuries forced him into the rotation. Let me add another one: workload. In 2007, Kendrick pitched 206 innings between AA and the majors--a pretty big jump from the 176 he threw in two levels of A-ball the previous year, and a lot for any 22/23 year-old. Charlie Manuel was pretty responsible with Kendrick's pitch count within games, but the nature of young pitchers is that he could wind up on the shelf. The projection systems aren't optimistic about Kendrick, either: the most optimistic have him turning in an ERA under 4.50 with 175 or so IP, while the bears (prominently including Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA) peg Kendrick for an ERA north of 5, in fewer innings.
But he looks freakin' great compared to the incumbent #5, Adam Eaton. The good news for Eaton in 2007 was that he stayed relatively healthy, approaching his career highs in starts and innings pitched. The bad news for the Phillies was that he stayed relatively healthy, approaching his career highs in starts and innings pitched. Eaton's ERA+ was 73, meaning he was 27 percent less effective than the average big-league hurler. Now, he'd never been that bad before--but he'd also never been particularly good. About the best-case scenario for Eaton is that he reverts to his 2003-2005 form, during which time he won 31 games for San Diego with ERAs of 4.08, 4.61, and 4.27. Of course, in OFJOAB it's probably safe to add a bit less than a run to those ERAs, so something around 5.20-5.30 might be a reasonable "bounceback' expectation. But it's more likely he'll just get hurt and/or suck again. Eaton's projected ERA under various models range between PECOTA's 5.18 and 5.61 from our own MattS. Nobody expects him even to reach his modest 2007 innings total of 161.2.
This is a hell of a long windup to get to the point, which is that the Phillies need to re-sign Kyle Lohse. A savior he ain't; I'm not even sure he's a particularly reliable stopgap. But he is a good bet to turn in 180-200 innings of more or less league-average performance--and I'm not sure the same can be said for anyone currently in the rotation, including Hamels and Myers.
Superficially, Lohse's career actually looks a bit like Eaton's: the middling W/L records, the one disaster year (2006 for Lohse, '07 for Eaton). But there are two vital distinctions: one, Lohse pitched for most of his career in the tougher league, which inflated his numbers while Eaton's were deflated by pitching in San Diego, and two, Lohse is pretty durable. He pitched 192.2 innings in 2007, and has cracked 175 in every full season he's been in the big leagues (Lohse split his nightmarish '06 between the majors and minors).
Nobody sees Kyle Lohse as a breakout star for 2008: the projection systems all peg him for an ERA in the mid-to-high 4s, with another record around .500. It's become clear that his hopes for a contract analogous to what Gil Meche got from the Royals last winter (5 years, $55 million), or Carlos Silva's deal from December with the Mariners (4 years, $48 million), won't be realized. But Lohse does have suitors with at least some interest: Baltimore is rumored to be sniffing around--as are the Mets and Phillies. At last report, the Phils were willing to go to two years with a third-year option; given the pervasive uncertainty in their #3 through #5 slots, if they can bring him in under $10 million per on such a deal, they need to bite their collective lip and do it.
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Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
It's a shame the Phillies decided to spend money on something they didn't need (Feliz) because they could have snapped up Lohse, who is probably the best remaining free agent pitcher.
No to Livan Hernandez (fly ball-happy), Kris Benson (Minor League deal would be fine), Odalis Perez, and Bartolo Colon (can't hit 90 with his fastball according to most accounts I've read or heard).
by Baerwcb on Feb 5, 2008 6:21 AM EST reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
"The Phils haven't closed the door on re-signing free-agent pitcher Kyle Lohse, although Amaro Jr. said the likelihood was "fairly low.""
by Homer on Feb 5, 2008 10:21 AM EST reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Your scenario is the optimistic one. It's plausible, but I think it's as or more likely that Moyer finally shows his age, Kendrick gets hit or hurt, and Eaton is, well, Eaton. Signing Lohse at least would provide some hedge against the fairly likely downside. Otherwise we're reduced to hoping that one of Mathieson, Outman, Carrasco or Carpenter can do what Kendrick did last year--again, possible, but not something you'd want to count on.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Now I am hoping that Kendrick's K/9 rate is the result of a small sample size and he can at least get it in the 5-6 range. Regardless, it is hard to say that Kendrick was anything more than lucky last year, and while yes, he may improve as a pitcher (increasing his K/9) his baseline stats in 2008 (ERA, WHIP, W/L record) will still likely be worse than in 2007 because he was that lucky.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
That's the sort of "accept the mistake and get on with our lives" move the Phils should contemplate with Eaton. But, being dumbasses, they never will.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
They're not dunbasses, THEY'RE SMARTER THAN WE ARE!!! They're in the business...they're pro's.
We're just a bunch of little, wannabe jerks who don't know anything. They are soooooooo much better at identifying talented players, reading stat sheets, and picking the best prospects that we need to just shut up and spend money.
After all they've been to the playoffs so often and won so many WS championships that their credibility shouldn't be challenged.
Why, after all, 1993 and 2007 weren't flukes or abberrations, despite the fact that those appearances were 14 years apart.
Hey, they're so smart they're going to win the division 14 straight years, just like the Braves.
Remember, we're dumb, they are smart, so if they sign players like Eaton, or trade for Freddie Garcia, or trade away Abreu for a slew of high-ceiling minor league players, then that's their perogative.
To borrow a phrase from Joe Banner:
The Phillies are the Gold Standard for how a franchise should be run!
by AWH on Feb 5, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Also, Ozzie Guillen and Dusty Baker come to mind when talking about "pros" who are not that smart. Ozzie Guillen insists on his team bunting and using the hit and run when it has been proven that it is counter-effective to do so by baseball "pros" who are smart. Dusty Baker once claimed that OBP wasn't all that great if the players were just clogging up the bases. Think about that for a second. Dusty Baker has spent most of his life in baseball as a professional and yet he made an absurd comment that showed his complete lack of understanding about the sport.
By and large, I would agree that many front office /managers do know more than we do, but that is not always the case.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
It is becoming apparent that that's how the Phillies really feel. I do believe they think they are some of the 'wise men' of the game.
What is obvious to many serious fans seems lost to many MLB executives. Your point about Zito was dead-on.
There is no such thing as a risk-free trade or FA signing, so the FO must weigh the cost benefits of every move.
It just seems that where the Phillies are concerned, their evaluation of players with MLB track records is hit-or-miss.
They got it right with Thome and Lieber(when healthy), but the Bell, Nunez, Eaton and Barajas signings were/are basically dead money.
by AWH on Feb 10, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
If he's effective in spring, then who knows: maybe you're right and he "bounces back" to a 5.30 ERA. But even there, he's stealing money and taking innings from a possibly better option.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
If he is ever going to have one of those years, this would be the time for it.
He may have been pitching with a sore shoulder last year. He supposedly had an MRI and worked out in the off season with some shoulder guru that Moyer knows. Mitch Williams kept saying last season that if he "would get on top of the ball he would be awesome" and stuff like that. So maybe now his shoulder is all strengthened and good and he is ready for a Pavano in 2004 kind of year (Jeez, even a Pavano in 2003 year would be very helpful).
The problem with my theory is that Eaton is almost always hurt with something and he has only been any good for about a half a season in an extreme pitcher's park. So there's not much there, there.
But who knows? The Phils announced that he had an MRI but never talked about it again. That's probably not a good thing. And Eaton was really bad last year so even a fairly big improvement leaves him at bad I'd guess.
Anyway , the one good thing regarding Eaton is that the Phils called him a potential 20 game winner and he's half way there (they didn't say 20 wins all in one season now did they?).
by smitty @ The Good Phight on Feb 10, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
As we move into ST and the regular season it will be clear how much a reliable, if unspectacular, pitcher such as Lohse could mean to the Phils. There's no doubt in my mind that we'll find out, for example, that Eaton's shoulder is still bothering him or Hamels' elbow needs rest, etc., and we'll be facing the prospect of one or both of the Durbins and/or Travis Blackley and/or Shane Youman getting several starts.
Unfortunately, my guess is that the Phils would like to have Lohse but they're at or near their payroll limit, so they'll sign another big question mark like Kris Benson instead of Lohse. Maybe it will work out. But when you're the defending NL East champs, your chief competition has improved and you're trying to move forward not back, it's time to stop continuing to take fliers on pitchers and sign a known quantity.
Oh, well. . .
by JFLNYC on Feb 6, 2008 9:24 AM EST reply actions
Hmmm
The Benson thing is interesting to me, though. I don't know enough about rehab or how guys bounce back from serious injuries to say for sure, but if Benson could reasonably approximate what he did before the injury, he's basically Lohse--but a lot cheaper.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Then again, I've been wondering if part of the noise about Benson is intended to push Lohse toward taking the Phils' likely one-year/two-years-plus-option. He'll sign somewhere, of course, but the dollars could be dropping by the day at this point.
Both?
The more Eatons/Lohses/Bensons you have the better shot one or more will end up a decent starter for you.
Although I did say that about Garcia/Eaton/Leiber last year...
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I think the phils really need him this year to compete, but seems like a big injury risk like cole.
by dbeach13 on Feb 6, 2008 9:54 PM EST reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Actually, you're kind of wrong about Myers. He only pitched 18 times over the 34 team games between when he started as a reliever and his last appearance before going on the DL, so he certainly wasn't going "every single day." He only pitched on consecutive days four times (technically, he pitched three consecutive days twice). By the way, he's only pitched 200 innings or more in a season one time, three years ago.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
MAy 12- 2.0 innings 35 pitches
May 14- 1.0 14
May 15- 1.1 25
MAy 16- 1.0 13
MAy 18- 1.0 24
May 20- 1.1 24
MAy 23- .2 innings 27 pitches and injury!
So between may 12 and may 20 he pitched 6 times! and more than an inning 3 times over 24 pitches 4 times. When he was being used that much everyone was saying Manuel was gonna blow Myers arm out this way. Also, you say he was ONLY used 18 of 34 games during that span. Over a 162 game season this translates to 86 appearances. That would be the second most in the Majors!!!! The leader pitched 2 innings just twice the entire year. MYers did so 6 times as a reliever!! All while starting the year in the rotation and spending over 2 months on the DL.
There's the preparation too...
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
For what it's worth, my layman's opinion is that Myers' injury had less to do with overuse than with a change in pitching style. It seemed like when he started pitching out of the bullpen, he started throwing harder and also throwing his curveball more, both things that would stress his arm.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Hamels will need to miss starts. Myers will need to miss starts. Moyer will need to miss starts. How many innings can we count on from Kendrick? Will Eaton be remotely effective or healthy?
For the Phils to give themselves the best shot at keeping up with the Mets/D-Backs/Cubs/Rockies/Padres, we need "reliable" guys to fill-in when our starters go down. And what happens if Lidge shits the bed? We need insurance. Signing Benson or Lohse does not provide enough. However, at this point, signing both guys would be the best possible move the Phils could make.
Of course, this is all highly unlikely....but we can dream.
by The Avery on Feb 10, 2008 1:06 PM EST reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Think of it this way: sign Lohse, and the rotation is Hamels/Myers/Lohse/Moyer/Kendrick. That's a strong 1-2, a decent 1-3, and a reasonably risky 4-5 with Eaton the swingman and less pressure on Happ, J.D. Durbin, Outman and Carrasco.
SIgn them both, and you can give Benson whatever additional time he needs for a full recovery. Then you either trade Eaton, eating most of what's left on his contract, and/or stash Kendrick back at AAA. And at that point you've almost canceled the Mets' Santana gains.
Too bad they'll never do it.
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
(Of course, now that I said this, Lohse will probably go down with a bum elbow/shoulder this year. I'm knocking on wood as I type...)
by The Avery on Feb 11, 2008 10:11 PM EST reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
also, more than a few columnists/observers/etc. have speculated that Eaton is injured. that doesn't really help.
by perfectdepth on Feb 12, 2008 7:20 AM EST up reply actions
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I thought the guy pitched better than his numbers with the Phillies; he had one game in Pittsburgh where he was brilliant for six innings, then ran out of gas in the 7th and got beaten up, and I think there was at least one more like that.
It's probably also worth noting that while Lohse did reasonably good work with the Phillies last year, you have to go back a fairly long while to find the last time Eaton was even particularly close to league average... 2003, in fact. He had an ERA+ of 97 that year; since then, his seasonal figures have been 84, 90, 90, and 73. Lohse over the same five years: 98, 89, 106, 78, 100.

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