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Time to buy low on Lohse

In ambition, expectations, and comfort with high-stakes risk, the distinctions between the Phillies and the Mets were never as much on display as last week, when the Phils signed Pedro Feliz on Monday, and the Mets traded for Johan Santana the day after.

For $8.5 million over two years, the Phils are making a modest bet that Feliz's strengths--defense and mistake-hitter power--will outweigh his broad-based offensive futility. For about twenty times as much money over seven years, the Mets are pushing a huge stack of chips to the middle of the table that Santana will add another Cy Young or two to his mantle and pitch them back into the NL East pole position, and well beyond to championship glory.

As we discussed then, the move vaults New York into the favorite slot in the battle for divisional supremacy. But not only does Santana give the Mets an ace whom you'd take over Cole Hamels in a head-to-head (if just for Santana's clean bill of health and more extensive big-game experience, for those into that sort of thing), he greatly reduces the risk factor throughout their rotation. Aging and injury-prone vets Pedro Martinez and Orlando Hernandez are now #2 and #3--though expecting them to effectively combine as a #2 is probably more realistic. Highly skilled but inconsistent younger starters John Maine and Oliver Perez, both 15-game winners in 2007, are now #4 and #5; for much of last season, they were #1 and #2. Talented young underachiever Mike Pelfrey is the first replacement, and the Mets might not be done yet--but more of that in a bit.

Now consider the Phillies. Hamels is a bona fide ace whose health is the only concern. Brett Myers, the once-and-again #2, is probably solid but did miss significant time last season. And then it gets scary.

Star-divide

For the moment, the Phillies' #3 starter is 45 year-old slop-baller Jamie Moyer. That description isn't an insult; when he's locating, Moyer is an absolute delight to watch, and not just because you read the speed gun and think "I could almost do that!" Particularly against young, aggressive hitters, it's a thrill to watch how he wins battles with sequencing and psychology. But he's 45, the ERA nosed over 5 last season, and even the young guys in the Braves, Marlins and Nationals lineups have seen him a time or three now. In every sense, time isn't on Moyer's side, and his projected results under various systems show as much: most have him around a 5 ERA in about 180 innings pitched.

The #4 is Kyle Kendrick, who's half Moyer's age but was as or more important in the Phils' unlikely run to the division flag last year. If you're a regular reader of this blog, or any other site coverage of the team aside from Phillies Pravda or whatever bobblehead the Daily News has on the beat these days, you probably understand why Kendrick can't really be counted on either: the low strikeout rate (3.64/9 IP), the flukishly great numbers with RISP last season (.207/.271/.310 allowed), the near-total lack of prospect pedigree before injuries forced him into the rotation. Let me add another one: workload. In 2007, Kendrick pitched 206 innings between AA and the majors--a pretty big jump from the 176 he threw in two levels of A-ball the previous year, and a lot for any 22/23 year-old. Charlie Manuel was pretty responsible with Kendrick's pitch count within games, but the nature of young pitchers is that he could wind up on the shelf. The projection systems aren't optimistic about Kendrick, either: the most optimistic have him turning in an ERA under 4.50 with 175 or so IP, while the bears (prominently including Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA) peg Kendrick for an ERA north of 5, in fewer innings.

But he looks freakin' great compared to the incumbent #5, Adam Eaton. The good news for Eaton in 2007 was that he stayed relatively healthy, approaching his career highs in starts and innings pitched. The bad news for the Phillies was that he stayed relatively healthy, approaching his career highs in starts and innings pitched. Eaton's ERA+ was 73, meaning he was 27 percent less effective than the average big-league hurler. Now, he'd never been that bad before--but he'd also never been particularly good. About the best-case scenario for Eaton is that he reverts to his 2003-2005 form, during which time he won 31 games for San Diego with ERAs of 4.08, 4.61, and 4.27. Of course, in OFJOAB it's probably safe to add a bit less than a run to those ERAs, so something around 5.20-5.30 might be a reasonable "bounceback' expectation. But it's more likely he'll just get hurt and/or suck again. Eaton's projected ERA under various models range between PECOTA's 5.18 and 5.61 from our own MattS. Nobody expects him even to reach his modest 2007 innings total of 161.2.

This is a hell of a long windup to get to the point, which is that the Phillies need to re-sign Kyle Lohse. A savior he ain't; I'm not even sure he's a particularly reliable stopgap. But he is a good bet to turn in 180-200 innings of more or less league-average performance--and I'm not sure the same can be said for anyone currently in the rotation, including Hamels and Myers.  

Superficially, Lohse's career actually looks a bit like Eaton's: the middling W/L records, the one disaster year (2006 for Lohse, '07 for Eaton). But there are two vital distinctions: one, Lohse pitched for most of his career in the tougher league, which inflated his numbers while Eaton's were deflated by pitching in San Diego, and two, Lohse is pretty durable. He pitched 192.2 innings in 2007, and has cracked 175 in every full season he's been in the big leagues (Lohse split his nightmarish '06 between the majors and minors).

Nobody sees Kyle Lohse as a breakout star for 2008: the projection systems all peg him for an ERA in the mid-to-high 4s, with another record around .500. It's become clear that his hopes for a contract analogous to what Gil Meche got from the Royals last winter (5 years, $55 million), or Carlos Silva's deal from December with the Mariners (4 years, $48 million), won't be realized. But Lohse does have suitors with at least some interest: Baltimore is rumored to be sniffing around--as are the Mets and Phillies. At last report, the Phils were willing to go to two years with a third-year option; given the pervasive uncertainty in their #3 through #5 slots, if they can bring him in under $10 million per on such a deal, they need to bite their collective lip and do it.  

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Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Agreed. Adam Eaton cannot take the mound once every 5 days if the Phillies want to legitimately contend with the Mets.

It's a shame the Phillies decided to spend money on something they didn't need (Feliz) because they could have snapped up Lohse, who is probably the best remaining free agent pitcher.

No to Livan Hernandez (fly ball-happy), Kris Benson (Minor League deal would be fine), Odalis Perez, and Bartolo Colon (can't hit 90 with his fastball according to most accounts I've read or heard).

by Baerwcb on Feb 5, 2008 6:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I recall reading this Zolecki article (thanks to mlbtraderumors) that said something along the lines of...

"The Phils haven't closed the door on re-signing free-agent pitcher Kyle Lohse, although Amaro Jr. said the likelihood was "fairly low.""

by Homer on Feb 5, 2008 10:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I like alot of your points.  But, I do not see any reason to not expect the same or better production from kyle kendrick.  He forces hitters into groundballs.  LAst time I checked, the phils just signed the best defensive 3rd baseman in the nl!! This will help moyer and kendrick.  This must be factored in.  I think Moyer's era will probably hover right around 4.5 to 5 while I have hope that kendrick can be as good or even better than he was last year under moyer's tutilage.  I dont know what will come out of the 5th spot in the rotation but, I like what we get 1-4.  Theres no reason not to expect many quality starts out of this staff.  If the rotation can stay healthy, we are in good shape.  The bullpen also looks good if gordon can produce and madson can stay healthy.  

by schrifty on Feb 5, 2008 11:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Adding lohse or benson could allow us to put eaton in a long relief role, buy him out, or trade him while surely picking up most of his salary.

by schrifty on Feb 5, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
The way to test your hypothesis would be to try and determine how much better the team's pitchers would have performed last year were a better defender at third base. Remember, Nunez played third for many (most?) of Moyer's starts; Feliz might be a better defender than No-Hit, but if so, not by much. And I don't recall too many Kendrick starts being undone by defensive butchery from Dobbs or Helms--so I don't know how much is going to be gained there either. The other guys are fly ball pitchers.

Your scenario is the optimistic one. It's plausible, but I think it's as or more likely that Moyer finally shows his age, Kendrick gets hit or hurt, and Eaton is, well, Eaton. Signing Lohse at least would provide some hedge against the fairly likely downside. Otherwise we're reduced to hoping that one of Mathieson, Outman, Carrasco or Carpenter can do what Kendrick did last year--again, possible, but not something you'd want to count on.

by dajafi on Feb 5, 2008 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Yes Kendrick has a decent GB/FB ratio but let's not get carried away here. The main concern with Kendrick is his K/9 rate which was 3.65. The only successful pitcher off that I could think of with a K/9 that low is is Chien-Mien Wang whose career K/9 rate is 3.83. Unfortunately for us Phils fans Wang's GB/FB ratio is 2.90 which nearly doubles Kendrick's who had a 1.55. Even Derek Lowe has a far better K/9 rate for his career at 5.82 and his GB/FB ratio is to the tune of 3.34.

Now I am hoping that Kendrick's  K/9 rate is the result of a small sample size and he can at least get it in the 5-6 range. Regardless, it is hard to say that Kendrick was anything more than lucky last year, and while yes, he may improve as a pitcher (increasing his K/9) his baseline stats in 2008 (ERA, WHIP, W/L record) will still likely be worse than in 2007 because he was that lucky.

by zdavis2512 on Feb 9, 2008 10:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I don't feel that the Phillies are going to bring up any minor league pitchers for the starting staff this coming year.  Jumping levels on these actual prospects (not  the junk we are used to seeing), can only hurt their development at this point, as they are all at least one if not two or three years away.  Plus, the Phils have a plethora of options for the five hole if Eaton should pitch like, well, Eaton including Blackely, Durbin, and the other Durbin (I never said they were attractive options).  Feel free to decide which one is Chad and which one is J.D..  

by Neduol Caz on Feb 5, 2008 2:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I don't see the Phillies bumping Eaton unless he's injured.  They have too much money invested in him.  Dumbasses.

by David S. Cohen on Feb 5, 2008 2:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Remember when the Mets traded Matsui to Colorado, getting jack in return and eating almost his entire salary?

That's the sort of "accept the mistake and get on with our lives" move the Phils should contemplate with Eaton. But, being dumbasses, they never will.

by dajafi on Feb 5, 2008 3:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
DC & d, you guys just don't get it:

They're not dunbasses, THEY'RE SMARTER THAN WE ARE!!!  They're in the business...they're pro's.

We're just a bunch of little, wannabe jerks who don't know anything.  They are soooooooo much better at identifying talented players, reading stat sheets, and picking the best prospects that we need to just shut up and spend money.

After all they've been to the playoffs so often and won so many WS championships that their credibility shouldn't be challenged.

Why, after all, 1993 and 2007 weren't flukes or abberrations, despite the fact that those appearances were 14 years apart.

Hey, they're so smart they're going to win the division 14 straight years, just like the Braves.

Remember, we're dumb, they are smart, so if they sign players like Eaton, or trade for Freddie Garcia, or trade away Abreu for a slew of high-ceiling minor league players, then that's their perogative.

To borrow a phrase from Joe Banner:

The Phillies are the Gold Standard for how a franchise should be run!

by AWH on Feb 5, 2008 10:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Just because they are pros does not necessarily mean they are smart. Brian Sabean's signing Barry Zito is a perfect example of this. Anyone with a computer and an understanding of statistical trends could have told you that Zito was not a great picther the last couple of years by looking at his peripheral numbers. Yet Sabean the "pro" went out and signed him to a record breaking deal for pitchers.

Also, Ozzie Guillen and Dusty Baker come to mind when talking about "pros" who are not that smart. Ozzie Guillen insists on his team bunting and using the hit and run when it has been proven that it is counter-effective to do so by baseball "pros" who are smart. Dusty Baker once claimed that OBP wasn't all that great if the players were just clogging up the bases. Think about that for a second. Dusty Baker has spent most of his life in baseball as a professional and yet he made an absurd comment that showed his complete lack of understanding about the sport.

By and large, I would agree that many front office /managers do know more than we do, but that is not always the case.

by zdavis2512 on Feb 9, 2008 10:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Please disregard my previous post, looking at your post again I can now see the sarcasm that filled the post. The switch just went on and I am a moron.

by zdavis2512 on Feb 9, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
No problem.  It was completely tongue-in-cheek.

It is becoming apparent that that's how the Phillies really feel.  I do believe they think they are some of the 'wise men' of the game.

What is obvious to many serious fans seems lost to many MLB executives.  Your point about Zito was dead-on.

There is no such thing as a risk-free trade or FA signing, so the FO must weigh the cost benefits of every move.

It just seems that where the Phillies are concerned, their evaluation of players with MLB track records is hit-or-miss.

They got it right with Thome and Lieber(when healthy), but the Bell, Nunez, Eaton and Barajas signings were/are basically dead money.

by AWH on Feb 10, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I am not sure what trading Eaton will accomplish if we eat almost his entire salary.  For the majority of his career, he has been a slightly less than mediocre pitcher, and I expect Eaton to "regress" back to that standard this year.  Now, if we have better options in the rotation, fine, make Eaton a very expensive long man in the 'pen.  However, if you gave me the choice of Eaton or Ennis, I know who I would choose.  Maybe I am missing something, but how does trading Eaton, eating 75% of his salary, and then have the likes of Ennis, Rosario, and whatever other organizational fillers you would like to mention in the 'pen help the Phillies?

by Neduol Caz on Feb 6, 2008 9:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Because you get him out of the way and you aren't tempted to use him just because you've paid so much for that dubious privilege. That's really it.

If he's effective in spring, then who knows: maybe you're right and he "bounces back" to a 5.30 ERA. But even there, he's stealing money and taking innings from a possibly better option.

by dajafi on Feb 6, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I keep thinking Eaton will be one of those Carl Pavano/Mike McCormick/Al Leiter types.  A guy with lots of promise who is hurt and lousy most of the time.  But then he rips off a really good year or two.

If he is ever going to have one of those years, this would be the time for it.  

He may have been pitching with a sore shoulder last year.  He supposedly had an MRI and worked out in the off season with some shoulder guru that Moyer knows.  Mitch Williams kept saying last season that if he "would get on top of the ball he would be awesome" and stuff like that.  So maybe now his shoulder is all strengthened and good and he is ready for a Pavano in 2004 kind of year (Jeez, even a Pavano in 2003 year would be very helpful).

The problem with my theory is that Eaton is almost always hurt with something and he has only been any good for about a half a season in an extreme pitcher's park.  So there's not much there, there.

But who knows?  The Phils announced that he had an MRI but never talked about it again.  That's probably not a good thing.  And Eaton was really bad last year so even a fairly big improvement leaves him at bad I'd guess.

Anyway , the one good thing regarding Eaton is that the Phils called him a potential 20 game winner and he's half way there (they didn't say 20 wins all in one season now did they?).

by smitty on Feb 10, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
As usual, my friend, we agree.  The Phils are in a situation which may never come again: They have 3 MVP's in their prime years in their lineup.  Even though the difference Lohse would make would not be of the same magnitude of the Mets' signing of Santana, the difference of two or three wins he'll likely provide not only over Eaton, but also in place of the starts which will otherwise got to a Chad Durbin when (not "if," but "when") Hamels, Myers, Kendrick and/or Moyer lose starts due to injury or ineffectiveness, could very well make the difference between the Phils going back to the playoffs or not. There is no other FA agent pitcher who could make as significant a difference (if any) as Lohse and there's no other difference-making pitcher available in a trade for whom the Phils have available personnel to trade.

As we move into ST and the regular season it will be clear how much a reliable, if unspectacular, pitcher such as Lohse could mean to the Phils.  There's no doubt in my mind that we'll find out, for example, that Eaton's shoulder is still bothering him or Hamels' elbow needs rest, etc., and we'll be facing the prospect of one or both of the Durbins and/or Travis Blackley and/or Shane Youman getting several starts.

Unfortunately, my guess is that the Phils would like to have Lohse but they're at or near their payroll limit, so they'll sign another big question mark like Kris Benson instead of Lohse.  Maybe it will work out.  But when you're the defending NL East champs, your chief competition has improved and you're trying to move forward not back, it's time to stop continuing to take fliers on pitchers and sign a known quantity.

Oh, well. . .

Jamie

by JFLNYC on Feb 6, 2008 9:24 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm
I don't know if any pitcher ever really can be described as a "known quantity," but I take your meaning.

The Benson thing is interesting to me, though. I don't know enough about rehab or how guys bounce back from serious injuries to say for sure, but if Benson could reasonably approximate what he did before the injury, he's basically Lohse--but a lot cheaper.

by dajafi on Feb 6, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Not only do I agree with dajafi that no pitcher is a "known quantity", but I consider Lohse to be very, very far from a "known quantity".  His era in every one of his seasons in the bigs is as follows: 5.68, 4.23, 4.61, 5.34, 4.18, 5.83, 4.62.  Compared with Eaton's season era's of 4.13, 4.32, 5.40, 4.08, 4.61, 4.27, 5.12, 6.29.  I understand Eaton had the luxury of pitching most of his seasons in SD, however, Minnesota is not exactly CBP either.  Also, I understand that era's do not tell the whole story, but they are fairly indicative of a pitcher's general worth.  I geuss, in the end, I just do not understand why everyone would like to sign Lohse to an Eaton type contract, when, in fact, Lohse and Eaton are basically the same pitcher.  Benson, on the other hand, I would absolutely love to sign.  His track record is significantly better than both Eaton's and Lohse's.  Plus, a low base salary and one year commitment make the signing relatively risk free.  If he is still injured or never recovers to be the same pitcher he once was, oh well.  However, if he does rehab back into the pre-injury form of himself, the Phillies just picked up a very good number four pitcher in their rotation.  

by Neduol Caz on Feb 6, 2008 2:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I think I'm with you on Benson--though it's a huge stretch to say that he's "significantly better than Lohse"; if I had to pick, I'd take Lohse.

Then again, I've been wondering if part of the noise about Benson is intended to push Lohse toward taking the Phils' likely one-year/two-years-plus-option. He'll sign somewhere, of course, but the dollars could be dropping by the day at this point.

by dajafi on Feb 6, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Both?
I'm not sure how cost prohibitive it would be... but at this point would it be all that idea to stock up on this level of pitcher?

The more Eatons/Lohses/Bensons you have the better shot one or more will end up a decent starter for you.

Although I did say that about Garcia/Eaton/Leiber last year...

Bleeding Green Nation Philadelphia Eagles Blog

by JasonB on Feb 8, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
How many innings can we expect Myers to realistically throw this year? After only throwing 68 innings last year, will he have trouble reaching 200?

I think the phils really need him this year to compete, but seems like a big injury risk like cole.

by dbeach13 on Feb 6, 2008 9:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
MYers never had injury problems before last year.  Even then it was because he was going out for 1-2 innings every single day!  Dude is an ox he will reach 200+ innings this yr.  If anything, his season as a closer will help his approach as a starter.

by schrifty on Feb 7, 2008 7:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Glad we have a orthopedic medicine expert to tell us why Myers got injured. I'm a little worried about Hamels... any thoughts there?

Actually, you're kind of wrong about Myers. He only pitched 18 times over the 34 team games between when he started as a reliever and his last appearance before going on the DL, so he certainly wasn't going "every single day." He only pitched on consecutive days four times (technically, he pitched three consecutive days twice). By the way, he's only pitched 200 innings or more in a season one time, three years ago.

by phatj on Feb 7, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
For a guy conditioned to pitch once every 5 days 18 times in 34 games is a lot! You are correct he pitched 200+ innings once in the 2005 season but i am pretty sure 198 innings in 2006 is right there! By the way when Myers got injured the week and a half preceding injury went like this:
MAy 12- 2.0 innings 35 pitches
May 14- 1.0 14
May 15- 1.1 25
MAy 16- 1.0 13
MAy 18- 1.0 24
May 20- 1.1 24
MAy 23- .2 innings 27 pitches and injury!
So between may 12 and may 20 he pitched 6 times! and more than an inning 3 times over 24 pitches 4 times.  When he was being used that much everyone was saying Manuel was gonna blow Myers arm out this way.  Also, you say he was ONLY used 18 of 34 games during that span.  Over a 162 game season this translates to 86 appearances.  That would be the second most in the Majors!!!! The leader pitched 2 innings just twice the entire year. MYers did so 6 times as a reliever!! All while starting the year in the rotation and spending over 2 months on the DL.  

by schrifty on Feb 8, 2008 11:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

There's the preparation too...
I suppose that's what I found most odd about the switch last year. The guy spent all offseason preparing for a schedule that would have him taking the mound every 5 days. Admittedly, I'm not sure how different that is from the preparations a reliever takes... but it's a fair question to ask whether going from a once every 5 days set schedule to one where he's up and down every other night had anything to with his arm problems.
Bleeding Green Nation Philadelphia Eagles Blog

by JasonB on Feb 8, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I hear you, I guess you were speaking hyperbolically originally and I didn't pick up on that.

For what it's worth, my layman's opinion is that Myers' injury had less to do with overuse than with a change in pitching style. It seemed like when he started pitching out of the bullpen, he started throwing harder and also throwing his curveball more, both things that would stress his arm.

by phatj on Feb 8, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
And then when he came back, as I understand it, he couldn't throw the cutter--the pitch he absolutely needs to succeed as a starter. So he'd damn well better be 100 percent.

by dajafi on Feb 8, 2008 12:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Jaime has made the most poignant comment so far: the Phils are in a situation right now that we very well may never see again (at least in this town), THREE MVP-caliber players in their prime.  The FO should be doing everything it possibly can to maximize the gains we receive from this team (i.e. win championships).  However, this ownership group seems to be content with simply contending every year.  Contending was a nice goal back in 2004, but in 2008 are only goal should be to win the National League.   Signing Benson or Lohse is not a move of a team with that mentality.  IMO, we need to make a strong attempt at signing both guys.  
Hamels will need to miss starts.  Myers will need to miss starts.  Moyer will need to miss starts.  How many innings can we count on from Kendrick?  Will Eaton be remotely effective or healthy?  
For the Phils to give themselves the best shot at keeping up with the Mets/D-Backs/Cubs/Rockies/Padres, we need "reliable" guys to fill-in when our starters go down. And what happens if Lidge shits the bed?  We need insurance.  Signing Benson or Lohse does not provide enough.  However, at this point, signing both guys would be the best possible move the Phils could make.  
Of course, this is all highly unlikely....but we can dream.  

by The Avery on Feb 10, 2008 1:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I was thinking about this last night, and you're absolutely correct.

Think of it this way: sign Lohse, and the rotation is Hamels/Myers/Lohse/Moyer/Kendrick. That's a strong 1-2, a decent 1-3, and a reasonably risky 4-5 with Eaton the swingman and less pressure on Happ, J.D. Durbin, Outman and Carrasco.

SIgn them both, and you can give Benson whatever additional time he needs for a full recovery. Then you either trade Eaton, eating most of what's left on his contract, and/or stash Kendrick back at AAA. And at that point you've almost canceled the Mets' Santana  gains.

Too bad they'll never do it.

by dajafi on Feb 10, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Lohse = Eaton.  I guess I am the only one who feels this way, though.

by Neduol Caz on Feb 10, 2008 10:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I think that Lohse's peripherals are eerily similar to Eaton's. That being said I believe that Park Factor and the DH may have caused a bit of that. Also it depends which Eaton you are talking about as Lohse is definitely better than last year's Adam Eaton though if Eaton bounces back a bit(probably around a 5.00 ERA and a 1.40 WHIP) then yes Loshe may equal Eaton.

by zdavis2512 on Feb 10, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
As has been stated here a number of times, the Phils need big time help in the pitching staff.  In order to win over the course of a 162-game season, you need more than just a solid number 1 and 2 starter--you need depth 1-5, even sometimes a 6th starter.  The Phils do not have that right now, and because of that, I think they'll have a bit of a letdown this season.  The Phils finish third this season in the NL East.  
Chris Iafolla http://heardinthecheapseats.com/

by Chris Iafolla on Feb 11, 2008 9:43 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Lohse does not equal Eaton.  Eaton is a mediocre to terrible pitcher with a tendency to find himself on the DL.  Lohse is a mediocre pitcher that will give you 200+ innings.  Big difference.

(Of course, now that I said this, Lohse will probably go down with a bum elbow/shoulder this year.  I'm knocking on wood as I type...)

by The Avery on Feb 11, 2008 10:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I see very little difference between Eaton and Lohse when looking at their stats and peripherals.  Lohse does stay off the DL, however, Eaton does not exactly live on it either.  

by Neduol Caz on Feb 11, 2008 10:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
I believe most fans saw Eaton pitch on several occasions last year with little success and then assumed that the '07 Eaton is the pitcher Eaton has been over the course of his entire career.  This is absolutely false.  So, which pitcher should we expect to see in '08?  The pitcher who was league average to slightly below league average for 7 years or the atrocious '07 version.  Unless Eaton has fallen off of a cliff at the age of 29, I fully expect him to bounce back towards his career averages.  I also feel that an opposite trend has occurred between the fans and Lohse.  Lohse's shiny 3-0 record with the Phillies masked an era of 4.72, a whip of 1.443, and an average length of 5.3 innings per start.  Eaton's career averages are an era of 4.7, a whip of 1.402, and 5.8 innings pitched per start.  Tell me, what is everybody clamoring for when they are yelling at Phillies management to spend Eaton like dollars on Lohse?

by Neduol Caz on Feb 11, 2008 10:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
well, for one, because Eaton put up those numbers in the most pitcher-friendly ballpark in the game today, while Lohse has pitched into two ballparks that tend to inflate offensive stats since moving to the NL.

also, more than a few columnists/observers/etc. have speculated that Eaton is injured. that doesn't really help.

by perfectdepth on Feb 12, 2008 7:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
Lohse pitched 5 1/2 of his 7 career years in Minnesota, followed by 1 1/2 in Great American and CBP.  The Metrodome is ranked 28th in park factor while Petco is predictably ranked 30th.  Petco is where Eaton spent 6 years of his career followed by two years in Arlington and CBP.  I don't think park factors particularly favor either pitcher's statistics.  Also, beat writer speculation is not exactly a cold hard fact.  

by Neduol Caz on Feb 12, 2008 9:08 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Time to buy low on Lohse
There's definitely risk involved with Lohse. I just think this is a worthwhile time for the Phils to take reasonable risks, and that Lohse is a reasonable risk.

I thought the guy pitched better than his numbers with the Phillies; he had one game in Pittsburgh where he was brilliant for six innings, then ran out of gas in the 7th and got beaten up, and I think there was at least one more like that.

It's probably also worth noting that while Lohse did reasonably good work with the Phillies last year, you have to go back a fairly long while to find the last time Eaton was even particularly close to league average... 2003, in fact. He had an ERA+ of 97 that year; since then, his seasonal figures have been 84, 90, 90, and 73. Lohse over the same five years: 98, 89, 106, 78, 100.

by dajafi on Feb 12, 2008 5:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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